LIVE UPDATES | Day 4 of Kouri Richins murder trial

Kouri Richins, a Utah mother of three boys, is accused of fatally poisoning her husband, Eric Richins, in 2022. She is on trial in Summit County, Utah, on charges of aggravated murder, attempted aggravated murder, insurance fraud and forgery.

Today is the fourth day of the trial. It is scheduled to begin each day at 8:30 a.m. East Idaho News will be posting live written updates all day. Please excuse typos. You can watch the livestream here. The most recent updates are at the top of this page.

4:49 p.m. During an afternoon, a juror passed a note to a bailiff asking if there were members of the audience in the courtroom sketching members of the jury. There was indeed a member in the audience sketching jurors and identifying the sketches by juror number. That person was removed and the sketchbook was confiscated. Court will be back in session tomorrow at 8:30 a.m. Join me tonight at 7 p.m. on the East Idaho News YouTube channel for “Courtroom Insider.” We’ll recap what went on today. Lots to talk about!

4:46 p.m. Back and forth over what Carmen said in interviews with police versus her testimony today. Judge asks attorneys to approach for a quick conversation about scheduling. Sidebar is now over. He is dismissing jury for the evening.

4:42 p.m. Lewis points to a comment a detective made that Carmen’s cooperation with them is a “giant get out of jail free card.” One of the detectives told her “this whole case depends on you” and “you need to finish painting the picture.” Carmen says that’s correct.

4:37 p.m. Lewis asking about conflicting stories Carmen apparently had about putting the pills in the firepit versus inside the house. She refers Carmen to the transcript.

4:33 p.m. When detectives brought up Robert Crozier with Carmen, Lewis asks if she remembered his name. She knew him as a dealer in Ogden and she asked for her phone to help remind her of his name. His name was in her phone.

4:29 p.m. Lewis asks Carmen about her reaching out to a woman named Nicole Cummings to get something stronger than the prescription Oxy she got from Susan. Carmen asked Nicole if she knew anybody who could get her some pills – some Roxy 30s or blues. Blues mean manmade drugs on the street. In early 2022, did blues at that time not mean fentanyl, Lewis asks. Carmen responds, “blues are blues.”

4:26 p.m. Lewis repeatedly asks about Carmen and her memory issues. She met with a detective in May 2023 and he told her because of her cooperation, she is not going to be charged. She replied, “I’m willing to do whatever.” The detectives told Carmen they needed to talk with Susan Kohler. They told Carmen that Susan could be charged with murder if her pills led to someone’s death.

4:23 p.m. Lewis asks Carmen if she told detectives, “Just write it all down and I’ll sign it.” She says she asked them to write her statement and she could sign it.

4:21 p.m. Lewis asks about Carmen telling detectives her memory was messed up and foggy. It’s in the transcript. Carmen says that’s correct. In the same interview, Carmen told detectives, “I bought pills for Kouri three times before Eric died.” Lewis asks if detectives came back later and told her that number isn’t correct – the last purchase happened after Eric died.

4:17 p.m. Lewis asks about Carmen leaving the drugs in the closet and the number of transactions. Lewis asks Carmen what date she left the pills in the Midway house. She doesn’t know the approximate date. Lewis asks what was in the Midway home when she put the pills in the closet. Carmen says it was pretty empty.

4:11 p.m. Lewis suggests that detectives put the idea of the fentanyl in Carmen’s head – that she didn’t deal with fentanyl. Carmen says no, they told her Eric died from fentanyl.

4:05 p.m. Lewis asks Carmen if she remembers being asked about M30s or Oxys. One of the detectives told her M30s was fentanyl, and she responded that she didn’t know much about fentanyl. Lewis asks if Kouri ever asked her to get her fentanyl. She did not, Lewis says. Carmen says she got Roxys from Susan but she could get fentanyl from Robert. Lewis asks about Kouri requesting the Michael Jackson drug. Carmen didn’t know what that was and looked it up. It was Propofol.

4:03 p.m. Defense pulls up a photo showing dark green pills. Carmen says the pills she got were lighter than the ones in the photo. We see an image of two pills on the screen. Lewis asks if the pills Carmen collected said anything on them. She doesn’t know.

4 p.m. Carmen says she was willing to do whatever it takes to get the truth out. She told detectives she needed a “blueprint” to lay out what happened. “I’ll do whatever it takes,” she said to investigators. The detectives told Carmen they would go to the prosecutor and try to work out a deal for her. One of the detectives asked Carmen to write down everything she could remember to help them out for the next meeting. She never did write everything out.

3:57 p.m. A portion of a video is played. It’s the detectives interviewing Carmen. We see the video. The investigators tell Carmen that the drug court is looking at giving her a 7-year sentence. The only exception they are willing to make is if Carmen gives up the details that ensure Kouri will get convicted of murder.

3:55 p.m. Lewis wants to play something for Carmen and the jury. Bloodworth objects. Judge asks attorneys to approach.

3:52 p.m. Lewis reminds Carmen that she told detectives she had a lot of memory problems and her memory isn’t the best. She confirms it. “A lot to process when you’re incarcerated,” she says. Carmen told investigators she had “fried her brain” using drugs. She has been using drugs since sixth grade.

3:51 p.m. Carmen told detectives she was going to fight hard to stay in drug court. The detectives told her they were on her side and as long as their relationship continued, they were there for her.

3:48 p.m. Lewis points to another part of the police interview transcript when Carmen told detectives in May 2023 she bought drugs once from Susan and twice from Robert. Today she testified that she bought drugs once from Susan and three times from Robert. Lewis asks about the contradiction. Carmen says it was a lot to process a few years ago.

3:46 p.m. Lewis points out, in a transcript of Carmen’s interview with police, that she told them she never did a hand-to-hand exchange with Kouri. But today she testified that she gave the pills directly to Kouri in her driveway. Carmen said the pills were $600 and she didn’t make any money off the deal. Lewis says that’s not a very good drug dealer. Carmen says she did it because Kouri was a friend.

3:45 p.m. Three years ago, Lewis points out that Carmen told detectives the money was left in the fire pit at the Midway home and then the pills were placed there. This contradicts what she said earlier – that the pills were left inside the Midway home.

3:42 p.m. Jury is back. Lewis continues to question. Asks to admit the docket from drug court. Lewis asks what Roxy 30s are. They are stronger Oxycodone pills. Lewis asks if they are 30 milligrams of Oxycodone. Carmen isn’t sure.

3:40 p.m. Judge is back on the bench. He reminds everyone in the courtroom that there can be no audible reactions to the evidence or events in the courtroom. “Sit, be still, no audible reactions to anything. If anyone is unable to follow this instruction, I’ll need you to step out.”

3:14 p.m. Lewis asking about roxys. They are pain pills. Prosecution mentions that we’ve been in questioning since 12:30. Judge suggests taking a break. We are in recess until 3:25 p.m.

3:11 p.m. Carmen told the detectives that Kouri asked her for help getting pills for her investor. Lewis asks Carmen about her learning disability. “Can you share what that is?” Carmen responds, “No.” Lewis tells her to answer the question. Judge says she needs to answer. She responds that she has a low education.

3:07 p.m. The detectives left and Carmen says it was a lot to process while she was incarcerated. Carmen was looking at a lot of prison time and was worried. The detectives come back on May 2 and bring a DEA agent with them. This time they tell her that she’s looking at more time because if you provide a drug to someone and they die, you’re looking at a minimum of 20 years in prison. The investigators told Carmen they could help her out.

3:04 p.m. Lewis asked about Carmen telling the detectives she wanted to get out of Utah and go to Las Vegas to visit her fiancé. Carmen says the judge let her go to Vegas before she started cooperating with investigators. The detectives asked Carmen for her help in the Richins investigation. She said she needed some time to think about it.

3 p.m. The detectives told Carmen they believe Kouri killed Eric and that he died of a fentanyl overdose. That was the first time Carmen heard from officers that Eric had died of an overdose. She had heard earlier from a work colleague that Eric died of an overdose and that’s when she called Kouri to ask if it was true. During Carmen’s meeting with detectives, she told them that she has never done fentanyl. She has a daughter who had a problem with heroin and fentanyl. Her daughter has overdosed but survived.

2:56 p.m. Lewis asks to admit the order to show cause court document. No objection. Judge allows it in. Carmen was arrested on April 26, 2023. The next day, two detectives showed up to talk with her. They told her they found a gun under her bed and her drug court is in jeopardy. She was looking at two 5 years-life sentences and one 0-5 year sentence if she was found guilty in drug court.

2:53 p.m. Carmen started getting better, but then was arrested for driving on a suspended license. Then an order to show cause was issued in drug court. She needed to go into drug court and explain what happened. The judge would then make a decision if she can remain in drug court or get kicked out.

2:50 p.m. Carmen was using the day she bought drugs from Susan Kohler, Lewis points out. Lewis points out other days when she tested positive. Lewis says the entire time she was picking up drugs in early 2022, she was high. “Not the whole time,” Carmen says. She admits she was using regularly.

2:47 p.m. Lewis lists several days when Carmen missed drug tests and was sanctioned in late 2021 and early 2022. On Jan. 28, 2022, she tested positive for meth. She asked to be retested. The next week, she admitted she used meth and relapsed. She said working with the cleaning company, she folded and lied. “That’s what addicts do,” Carmen says. Lewis responds, “Yes, addicts lie.” Carmen responds, “Active addicts.”

2:45 p.m. Lewis approaches the witness to point out the times Carmen missed therapy, drug tests and drug court. Carmen says some of the absences were due to the fact she was running behind for work.

2:42 p.m. A warrant was issued for Carmen and the next week, she tested positive for benzos three times. The most common benzodiazepines are prescription drugs like Valium, Xanax, Halcion, Ativan and Klonopin. Carmen missed therapy in November.

2:40 p.m. Lewis asks Carmen if she was struggling in drug court. Carmen says in the beginning she was. Carmen missed her group therapy and treatment a few days after she started drug court in September 2021. She had to pay a $40 fee for missing therapy. The next month, in October 2021, she failed to appear for drug court.

2:36 p.m. Carmen has not completed drug court. Lewis asks about the expectations from drug court. Go to treatment, call in every day, drug testing, be employed, show up every week for group therapy. Carmen started drug court in September 2021.

2:34 p.m. Lewis asks how many first-degree felonies Carmen has been arrested for. She isn’t sure. Lewis lists off the felony charges Carmen has faced. Then she lists misdemeanor charges. Lewis talks about the plea-in-advance deal Carmen got. The court holds the plea and if you successfully complete drug court, the charges will be dismissed.

2:33 p.m. Carmen also spoke with her best friend Nick. Lewis asks if she told Nick, “I don’t even remember. You’re going to have to help me.” Lewis asks Carmen if she has been diagnosed with any mental health problems. Carmen says no. “You sure?” She says, “Yes.” Lewis brings up anxiety and asks if she takes any medication for it. She says she’s not on anxiety medication.

2:31 p.m. Lewis asks if the prosecutors helped put together the pieces of her testimony. Carmen says she asked them for assistance. Lewis asks Carmen who else she has spoken to about her testimony in the case. “Nobody,” she says. Carmen then says she spoke with two detectives and a lady from the feds while she was in jail.

2:29 p.m. Lewis asks if she has met with prosecutors over the past few weeks. Carmen has. Lewis asks if they practiced her testimony with her. She says they didn’t really practice, but went over some questions. Lewis asks if they reviewed her answers with her. Carmen says they did. Lewis asks if the prosecutors corrected her if they thought her answer was wrong. “Not really, no,” she says. Lewis asks if they practiced cross-examination with her. “They kind of just brought up how you were going to bring up my past, how I was going to feel.”

2:27 p.m. Carmen always met with the detectives 3-4 times. Lewis asks if they would talk about her testimony. She says not about her testimony, but questions like where she was during certain times. Lewis asks if the conversations were recorded. Carmen isn’t 100% sure. Lewis asks Carmen if the detectives drove her places. She says they sometimes drove her to court. Lewis asks if they had conversations in the car. Carmen says no.

2:25 p.m. Lewis has large black binders that she gives to Carmen. They are transcripts of the interviews Carmen did with investigators. “Whoa, that’s a lot,” Carmen says. Lewis says that between April and May 2023, Carmen had seven interviews with the police. Correct. Lewis asks how many times she met with detectives after she got out of jail. “A couple.” She isn’t sure on the numbers because it was a while back.

2:23 p.m. Carmen has never done any other drug deals with Robert and has never been back to the Maverik in Draper. Robert hit her up later for drug deals and said his buddy had more if her friend wanted any. Carmen reached out to Kouri and said more was available if she needed any. “She said no, her investor had left town,” Carmen says. Bloodworth has nothing further. Defense attorney Wendy Lewis will now question Carmen.

2:21 p.m. Robert came out of the townhouse with a baggie of round dark blue pills. Nick and Carmen left. He dropped Carmen off at her house. She texted Kouri and asked what she wanted Carmen to do with the pills. Kouri told her to take the pills to the Midway house. She put the pills in the closet.

2:18 p.m. Carmen went to the bank to deposit the check. Her account was in the negative. She deposited $300 and took out $1,000 cash. We see the receipt on the screen. Nick and Carmen then drove down Provo Canyon to pick up the drugs. She texted Robert but it was taking a while so she and Nick stopped at thrift stores. They eventually ended up at Maverik in Draper. They waited and Robert left for 20 minutes. He came back. He said his friend wasn’t answering the door. They followed Robert down the road to a duplex. They waited and Carmen said she wanted to leave.

2:16 p.m. Bloodworth moves to admit the check Kouri wrote to Carmen. It’s for $1,300 and was written on March 6, 2022. In the memo section it says, “construction clean Midway.” Bloodworth asks Carmen if Kouri owed her any money for cleaning or anything else. She did not. “I never cleaned a house ever in my life for $1,300.”

2:11 p.m. Back in the courtroom. Judge reminds Carmen to speak clearly into the microphone. The text exchange is now displayed. One of the texts is from Kouri to Carmen, “Still have your hook up?” Carmen said she could reach out to Robert. She responded, “Ok.” Kouri told Carmen that the investor would leave money under the doormat of Kouri’s Kamas home so Carmen could pay for the drugs. Nick picked Carmen up and went to Kouri’s house to pick up the cash. There was nothing under the doormats. Carmen rang the doorbell and Kouri told her to come inside. Carmen told her the money wasn’t there and Kouri asked if she could write Carmen a check. Kouri then wrote her a check.

1:57 p.m. We are taking a break until 2:10 p.m.

1:53 p.m. Judge Mrazik rules that just the table in the exhibit may come in through this witness. State will need to amend the exhibit.

1:50 p.m. Bloodworth says the issue can be solved if the Cellebrite heading is redacted from the top of the exhibit. Defense attorney Wendy Lewis says this is a Cellebrite report and should not be admitted because Cellebrite has not been introduced into the trial. Lewis is arguing with the judge and judge asks her to “please stay focused.”

1:47 p.m. Sidebar is over. Judge asks the jurors to take a break and asks Carmen to leave the courtroom so a legal issue can be discussed. Judge is talking about the exhibit Bloodworth hopes to admit. It contains text message content that was obtained through Cellebrite.

1:40 p.m. Defense objects. Says the Cellebrite extraction containing the text messages has not been entered into evidence and Carmen can not testify to it. Judge calls for sidebar.

1:38 p.m. After Eric died, Kouri asked Carmen if she still had the hook-up from her friend for drugs. Bloodworth asks to admit an exhibit showing a text exchange between Carmen and Kouri between March 6-7, 2022.

1:35 p.m. Carmen had never been to the Maverik in Draper other than the times to pick up the drugs. Carmen learned Eric had died a day or two after his death. She was with her friend Nick on their way to a urinalysis for drug court when she spoke with Kouri Richins on speaker phone. Nick could hear the conversation. Carmen said to Kouri, “Please tell me these pills were not for him.” Kouri said, “No, they were not. Eric passed away from a brain aneurysm.”

1:34 p.m. Bloodworth asks Carmen if she had ever purchased drugs from Robert before Eric died. She did not.

1:30 p.m. The pills were a lighter blue this time. Carmen texted Kouri and said she was on her way home. Carmen gave Nancy a few of the pills and reached out to Kouri to ask what she wanted her to do with them. Kouri is staring at Carmen in the courtroom. Kouri said she would come and pick up the pills. Kouri drove to Carmen’s house and picked up the pills.

1:28 p.m. Carmen texted Robert. He wrote her back and she told Kouri that she could get the drugs. Nancy took her again and they met at the same Maverik. Carmen texted Robert on the way down Provo Canyon to Maverik. She was also texting Kouri and giving her updates. All the texts were deleted. Carmen ultimately ended up at Maverik. She gave Robert the money, he left for 20-25 minutes, came back, gave her the baggie of pills and then they went their separate ways.

1:26 p.m. Kouri reached out to Carmen again and said her investor needed something stronger. Carmen responded that you can’t just order stuff off the street – you get what you get. Kouri asked for “the Michael Jackson stuff.” She wasn’t sure what Kouri meant and had to Google it. On the third drug buy, Kouri put around $1,000 cash in the little house in Midway. Carmen picked it up.

1:24 p.m. Bloodworth asks Carmen if she thought she could get away with more drug distribution and fake letters. She replies, “Not really,” but still tried. Bloodworth asks about her second drug deal with Robert Crozier. Carmen is wiping her eyes and nose. Bloodworth asks if she needs a minute. She says she is fine.

1:23 p.m. Carmen says she never did any community service on Kouri’s ranch. She submitted the letters to the court and got in trouble. She ended up in jail, with more community service ordered. When asked why she did it, Carmen says she didn’t have time to do her community service because she was busy picking up pills.

1:18 p.m. We now see a photo of the backyard of the home and the fire pit where Carmen put the pills. She clarifies there was not a fire burning at the time. Bloodworth moves to admit two letters. They are Community Service Letters. Carmen was late for group therapy sessions and the court ordered her to serve ten hours of community service. Carmen approached Kouri asking if she knew of anywhere she could get a letter saying she did community service. Kouri wrote two letters saying Carmen did community service at their ranch.

1:16 p.m. There were 15-20 light green pills in the baggie. Carmen and Nancy left. On the way, Carmen texted Kouri and asked her what to do with the pills. Kouri told her to take them to the Midway house and put them in one of the sheds. Carmen didn’t feel comfortable pulling them in a shed so she dug a hole in the fire pit, put them in the dirt and covered them up.

1:15 p.m. Carmen was texting with Robert on the way asking about ETA. She was also texting Kouri and keeping her update. Once Carmen got to Maverik, they texted each other about what type of vehicles they were in. Once she arrived, he came up to the window, picked up the money, and the left for 20-25 minutes. He came back with a “little clear baggie” that had round pills inside.

1:11 p.m. Bloodworth moves to admit three photos into evidence. No objection from defense. Judge allows the pictures in. The first one is Carmen in Nancy’s car with Carmen’s dog in the background. The other two photos are of Carmen and Nancy in her car. They are on the way to meet up with Robert Crozier at the Draper Maverik.

1:10 p.m. Bloodworth moves to admit some photos from Carmen’s phone. Defense objects and says they are from the Cellebrite extraction and witnesses can’t testify about Cellebrite. Judge calls for sidebar with attorneys.

1:08 p.m. We see an image of a small house in Midway where Kouri put the $1,000. Kouri told her the back door was unlocked. The money was in a box in a closet with some coffee cups. Carmen picked up the money and called Robert. A woman named Nancy Peterson drove Carmen to Maverik in Draper as Carmen did not have a car.

1:05 p.m. Robert asked Carmen to meet him at a Maverik gas station in Draper, Utah. Bloodworth asks Carmen if she has text messages between her and Robert. She deleted them. She deleted all her messages because she was worried if anyone saw them, she would get in trouble. Carmen agreed to meet Robert at Maverik. The fentanyl would cost $1,000. Kouri told Carmen the money would be at the Midway house.

1:04 p.m. Carmen’s friend put her in touch with Robert Crozier. She asked if he knew of anyone with strong painkillers for sale. He said he would check. Robert called her back and said he had someone who could give her fentanyl pills. Carmen told Kouri that she had a friend with access to fentanyl. Kouri told her to get them. Carmen reached out to Crozier and told him to get the pills.

1 p.m. Carmen reached out to a friend on Facebook Messenger to see if she might have access to drugs. We see messages on the screen that Carmen sent to her friend. It says, “Text me. I’ve got a question I can’t say on here.” It was sent on Feb. 5, 2022. She sent the message because she was going to ask her friend if she knew anybody who had any pills.

12:58 p.m. Kouri gave Carmen $600 for the pills. Bloodworth asks about the text messages between Kouri and Carmen. She says she deleted all the messages because she could get in trouble with drug court if anyone saw the messages that she was participating in selling drugs. The second time Carmen purchased drugs was from Robert Crozier. Kouri messaged and said her investor needed something stronger.

12:54 p.m. Kouri first asked Carmen about getting drugs in early February 2022. Carmen gave Susan $600 for the drugs. She asked Susan for an opioid painkiller. Susan returned with a white envelope full of pills a few hours later. There were little brown pills. Carmen then texted Kouri that she had pills. Kouri drove to Carmen’s house the next morning and picked up the pills.

12:52 p.m. Kouri asked Carmen to buy illicit drugs for her four times. The First time was Susan Kohler. The other times were from Robert Crozier. The first time Kouri asked about drugs, she asked if Carmen could get some pain meds for an investor that she knew. Carmen knew Susan was using and Susan knew someone with pain meds. Carmen and Susan worked together over the years.

12:50 p.m. Carmen spoke with Kouri about her drug use. She told Kouri about drug court and when she was going to graduate. She went into drug court in late 2021. Carmen knew Eric Richins. He would come in and joke with her. Carmen went to their house for a birthday BBQ at one point. Carmen knew Eric owned a stonemasonry business. She did not know any of his employees.

12:48 p.m. Bloodworth asks Carmen if she met with her attorney to prepare for today. She has. She reviewed what she said in jail, some photos and data from cell phones. Bloodworth asks Carmen if she knew Kouri Richins. She did. She worked for Kouri’s aunt cleaning houses. She also cleaned Kouri’s home every other Friday. She worked for Kouri’s aunt for nine years and got to know Kouri throughout the years.

12:46 p.m. Carmen says at first it took a minute to process everything. She is emotional and wiping her eyes with a tissue. Carmen spoke with investigators before she had immunity and wanted immunity. Carmen did not consult with an attorney before meeting with investigators. She was in jail.

12:45 p.m. Carmen knew Eric had died but when investigators told her it was from an overdose, “that hit hard only for the fact that, if that’s what happened, I needed to step up and take accountability in my part in this and what I asked for.”

12:44 p.m. Carmen says investigators told her Eric had died and defense objects based on hearsay. Judge calls for a sidebar.

12:42 p.m. Carmen’s lawyer assisted her in getting the immunity and advised her about what she could lose if she does not tell the truth. Carmen interviewed with investigators 6-7 times before getting immunity. She spoke with investigators about 10-15 hours total.

12:41 p.m. Carmen is represented by a lawyer and is testifying under agreements of immunity from several agencies including Summit County. She has four grants of immunity because she has committed crimes in connection with this case in four jurisdictions, she says. She must tell the truth and if she does, charges will not be filed on her, she explains. She has to testify truthfully and fully.

12:39 p.m. Carmen is on probation through drug court. It’s a rehabilitation program under court supervision. Charges are also pending against Carmen for marijuana possession and possession of a gun. She says she is sober now and has been sober for over four years. It’s the longest time in her life since sixth grade that she has been sober.

12:37 p.m. Carmen works with people who have disabilities. She admits to using drugs – cocaine, acid, alcohol, from high school into adulthood. She has sold drugs and has a criminal history involving drugs. Drug possession and drug distribution. She is currently on probation for felony drug distribution. Prosecutor Brad Bloodworth is questioning her.

12:35 p.m. Back from lunch. Next witness is Carmen Lauber.

11:32 a.m. Before break, judge says to gallery, “If ANY of you see a juror out in the wild, I need you to turn around and walk away. I cannot emphasize this more clearly.”

11:25 a.m. Jury dismissed for lunch until 12:30 p.m. Prosecutor Brad Bloodworth asks to make a record that defense counsel is making hypotheticals with certain witnesses. Bloodworth says for a “fact” witness, a hypothetical has to involve admissible evidence. Judge asks prosecution to object in the future if this issue comes up. Judge also asks for a “one horse, one rider” policy at sidebars where only one attorney from each side comes up, rather than multiple attorneys. We are in recess until 12:30 p.m.

11:23 a.m. Next witness is ready, but prosecution suggests possibly taking lunch now to now split up direct questioning. Judge asks attorneys to approach.

11:20 a.m. Sidebar with the witness is done. Jury is being invited back into courtroom. Nester asks how he would test an empty pill bottle. Holden says there was no pill bottle to test. No further questions from either side.

11:14 a.m. Holden needs to look at his notes to answer Nester’s next questions. Jury is dismissed while Burmester and Nester review the witness’s notes and ask him questions about them.

11:12 a.m. Holden tested 19 items. He’s asked if he ever tested a pill bottle. Prosecution objects. Sidebar. Nester asks the process of how Holden would test an empty bottle.

11:09 a.m. Nester pulls up a report for Holden to review. She asks the name of the officer who got the items to Holden. It was Jamie Woody. The person who delivered the items to Holden was Chelsea Gipson. Nester asks Holden if he ran tests on any of the pills or items to see if they contained oxycodone. He has never been asked to test for oxycodone or hydrocodone.

11:06 a.m. Holden was only looking for fentanyl. He was not able to confirm any fentanyl on anything he tested. Burmester has nothing further. Defense attorney Kathryn Nester will question Holden.

11:04 a.m. Next witness is Bryan Holden with the Utah Bureau of Forensic Services in the Utah State Crime Lab. He is being questioned by prosecutor Fred Burmester. Holden was given a large number of items to test and was asked to look for fentanyl in all of the items submitted to the lab.

10:56 a.m. After the information is pulled off, it was given back to the Summit County Sheriff’s Office. Eng-Tow is certified with Cellebrite. Ramos has no further questions. Chervenak has one follow-up. She asks if, once the data is downloaded, can it be manipulated. He explains that the process can not. Nothing further. Witness excused.

10:52 a.m. Prosecutor Lindsay Chervenak is questioning Eng-Tow. She asks him about the cell phones Eng-Tow downloaded – two iPhones, and he was given the passcodes to each phone from the Summit County Sheriff’s Office. Chervenak has no further questions. Defense attorney Alex Ramos asks Eng-Tow to walk the jury through the process of downloading the phone. Eng-Tow says you put in the passcode, unlock the phone, connect it to GrayKey (a little computer) and the data is then downloaded. It’s not readable and not accessible. You need forensic software to download it. You then use Cellebrite, which takes the extraction and parses the data into various types of files – photos, messages, etc.

10:51 a.m. Eng-Tow knows how to use Cellebrite, a program that pulls data from cell phones. He performed downloads on two iPhones in connection with this case. Eng-Tow is employed by the Department of Public Safety Bureau of Forensic Services.

10:47 a.m. Next witness is Cheney Eng-Tow. He is a digital laboratory technician. I did a story with Eng-Tow about his job a few years ago. You can watch it here:

10:32 a.m. Nester asks Root if he knew what Grossman did with his phones in between the times that law enforcement had them. He does not know, but says the phones were not operable at times. Sometimes they were operable. Nester asks if Grossman showed him anything on the phones. No – not on those specific phones. But on his current cell phone, Grossman did show him something. Nester asks if he compared what was on the current phone to what was on the inoperable phones. Prosecution objects – beyond the scope. Judge agrees. Grossman says the phones were inoperable because he had broken them, according to Root. Nester will have further questions at a later date, she says. Root is excused but remains under subpoena. Court taking morning recess.

10:30 a.m. Nester asks if there were multiple phones. There were two – one was black, one was white. They were recovered at the same time. Root had met Grossman before and had interviewed him. Nester asks if Root was asked to return the phones to Grossman. He was. Then he was asked to pick them up again. Root says he transported phones multiple times – more than two. Nester asks why. Root says he was instructed to retrieve them by his chain of command. He does not know why.

10:27 a.m. Next witness is Summit County Sheriff’s Office Detective Frank Root. Prosecutor Lindsay Chervenak asks about an iPhone 7 collected from a man named Robert Josh Grossman. (Kouri and Grossman were having an affair.) Root says he did collect a phone. Prosecutor has nothing further. Nester asks to meet with judge in sidebar before cross-examination.

10:25 a.m. Burmester has nothing further. Lewis has nothing. Peterson is excused.

10:22 a.m. Lewis has nothing further. Prosecutor Fred Burmester now following up. He asks if you can tell whether the alcohol in Eric’s body came from a drink or decomposition. You cannot, Peterson says.

10:21 a.m. Lewis asks if it’s possible Eric took fentanyl and then took quetiapine. Peterson says it’s a possibility.

10:17 a.m. Lewis asks about a therapeutic dose of fentanyl – what the difference would be if someone in the hospital took fentanyl versus someone who took it elsewhere. Lewis asks if it’s possible that Eric ingested fentanyl and then took a drink of alcohol. Peterson says it is possible. Quetiapine is not naturally produced in the body, so he would have had to take it. It was a low dose, and there was a small amount in the blood – but it was not above their threshold for reporting so the report indicates none was found in the blood. Quetiapine takes the same amount of time to hit the blood as fentanyl.

10:12 a.m. Lewis asks further questions about the amount of fentanyl and fatal doses. She’s trying to find out how much fentanyl was ingested in the body. Peterson says it’s hard to know exactly based on the distribution in the system.

10:10 a.m. Lewis asks if alcohol hits the bloodstream in 10-15 minutes. Peterson says if stomach is empty, it’s possible. She’s asked if fentanyl could be in the blood within 15-30 minutes. “If Mr. Richins had fentanyl in the blood but not alcohol, a possibility is that he ingested the fentanyl and then took a drink, give or take 30 minutes later, maybe less, 15-30 minutes after he took the fentanyl. Fair assumption?” Petersaon says she can’t provide a timeline of when things were ingested.

10:08 a.m. Lewis asks about a long delay between the autopsy and time of death. Peterson says that’s not something she does – autopsies. Lewis asks if testing was done for yeast in his system that could produce alcohol. No testing was done for yeast, Peterson says.

10:03 a.m. Lewis asks about norfentanyl. She asks if it’s possible someone could die of a fentanyl overdose so quickly you would not see norfentanyl in the system. Peterson says that’s correct. Lewis asks about post-mortem production of alcohol and if it’s found in every body. Peterson says you would not see it in every body. (Norfentanyl is used in the illegal manufacture of fentanyl. Click here for more about norfentanyl.)

10 a.m. Wendy Lewis is questioning. She asks about lethal doses of fentanyl and there being a large range of fatal doses of fentanyl. There is – depends on tolerance level of each person. “When someone takes fentanyl, is it fair to say that it would take about 30 minutes from the time fentanyl is ingested from it starts to show up in the bloodstream?” Depends on whether stomach is full, how it’s ingested, but generally 15-30 minutes.

9:56 a.m. Peterson asks about quetiapine in the system. Prosecutor has no further questions. Defense will now cross-examine.

9:54 a.m. Peterson explains how much of each substance was found in Eric’s body. 900 milligrams of ethanol were found in his body. 14,000 milligrams of ethanol is found in a standard alcoholic drink. Ethanol can be formed post-mortem.

9:51 a.m. Investigators asked Peterson to perform tests on the gastric fluid. Ethanol, fentanyl, norfentanyl and acetylfentanyl were detected. Acetylfentanyl is solely seen in illicitly manufactured fentanyl – not in prescription fentanyl.

9:49 a.m. Prosecutor asks about a lethal dose of fentanyl. It could vary from person to person based on a person’s history with the drug. You may need a higher concentration if you’ve experienced fentanyl in the past. Three nanograms is a lethal dose. In Eric’s body, there were 15 nanograms.

9:47 a.m. Prosecutor asks about post-mortem redistribution. This means the drugs are redistributed throughout the body after death. They could move from the heart to the blood, as an example.

9:45 a.m. Peterson screened for hydrocodone. None was found in the body. Hydrocodone has a half-life of 4-6 hours. “When a person dies, does it freeze in place, whatever is in the body?” the prosecutor asks. Peterson says in general. Cocaine could be broken down after death due to enzymes that could break it down. There are some drugs that have limited stability in biological samples after death but for the most part, your body has stopped working and will no longer be metabolizing.

9:42 a.m. Peterson walks through the process of testing. They received blood, urine, liver fluid and other samples from the Utah Medical Examiner in relation to Eric Richins’ death. A broad drug screen was performed that looks for hundreds of different drugs. A second confirmation test was then performed. Fentanyl was found at 15 nanograms per milliliter, and norfentanyl was also found in the system.

9:36 a.m. Prosecutor asks how toxicology process works. She receives samples from various clients – medical examiners, hospitals, doctors – and the clients will request specific testing to be performed. The samples are shipped or hand-delivered. Once the sample arrives, the specimen processing department opens the package, makes sure the information matches, and then they create their own case with a unique eight digit number. All the evidence is barcoded and tracked.

9:34 a.m. Next witness is Dr. Brianna Peterson. She’s been a forensic toxicologist for 20 years. She’s had extensive training over her career.

9:22 a.m. Taking a five minute recess.

9:19 a.m. Nester asks if Gipson, on the night of the death, ever asked Kouri if she could take photos of the bedroom, bathroom or take the cups found in the sink. Gipson did not. Nester done questioning. Prosecutor has nothing further. Gipson is not released from her subpoena, meaning defense could re-call her as a witness.

9:17 a.m. Gipson asked if she ever participated in downloading “secret” phone calls.” Gipson asks what she means by secret phone calls. Prosecutor repeats the question. Gipson says no. Prosecutor has nothing further. Nester following up and asks if police can legally search a home with consent of the homeowner. That’s correct. Nester says Kouri never stopped them, and they didn’t search the home the night Eric died.

9:14 a.m. Prosecutor shows images of the gummies and asks Gipson clarifying questions about where they were found in the home. We now see a photo Gipson took of a jacket in the home. She’s asked if she knew it was a man’s or woman’s jacket. Gipson couldn’t tell. Gipson asks about the black Under Armour jacket. She’s asked why she retrieved it. “It was the jacket a pair of tweezers and a small piece of plastic was located in.” Gipson asks why they kept going back to the house. “We obtained additional information that we may have missed originally.” Prosecutor asks if the investigation is developing and if they’re receiving new information. Yes.

9:11 a.m. Prosecution asks about the first search on March 4, 2022. Police did not have a search warrant as Eric had just died. Prosecutor mentions the times police went back searching for fentanyl because they say fentanyl killed Eric Richins. Prosecutor asks if a brown truck was at the home on April 13, 2023. Gipson does not recall. If there was a brown truck there and something was found in it, would Gipson been made aware of it? Yes, she says.

9:09 a.m. Nester asks about a K9 search of the home. It was on April 14, 2023. Nester asks if the dog went into vehicles. Gipson is unaware. Nester has no further questions. Prosecution will now question.

9:06 a.m. Nester asks about quetiapine pills found in the house. There were two pills that had been cut in half. Nester clarifies that the last search on the home was Feb. 9, 2026. A black Under Armor jacket was taken from one of the downstairs bedroom closets. There were a lot of jackets in the home. Nester asks about the search of the trucks. One was a brown work truck; another was a red truck. Nester asks which one was searched. Gipson believe it was the red one in the garage. Nester asks about the brown truck being searched. Gipson did not personally search the brown truck.

9:03 a.m. Nester asks about Eric’s Apple Watch seized from the home and how much data was on the watch. Gipson says there was some data on it, but she doesn’t recall if it had been deleted. Nester asks Nov. 7, 2024, to search when an Epipen was found. It was found in the kitchen. Nester asks if this is used for someone who has allergic reactions. Yes. Nester asks about an Epipen found in the master bedroom. Syringes were also found in the master bathroom/bedroom. They were taken into evidence. They were not tested because they had not been used. They are still in evidence. A syringe in the kitchen was tested and it was tested. Gipson doesn’t recall what the syringe tested positive for.

9:01 a.m. Gipson was in charge of keeping the video and audio interviews of the witnesses. Nester asks about audio or video missing from two interviews. Nester asks about audio or video footage missing from the interviews of Nick Von Savage and Nancy Peterson. Gipson is unsure if she’s ever been able to locate those two interviews.

9 a.m. A letter was found at the foot of the bed. Nester mentions several times where searches were done and there was never a letter at the foot of the bed. Gipson confirms. Then they found a letter at the foot of the bed in November. Nester asks how many times a private investigator was present when law enforcement searched the home. Gipson says once.

8:58 a.m. Nester asks if there was ever a time Gipson conducted a search because a private investigator told them there were items in the house worth going back for. Gipson says yes. Two times. Nester asks about the first time they went back. Gipson says it was about a voice recorder. The private investigator told law enforcement and a warrant was issued. Police went back and got the recorder. The second time they went back was to retrieve a letter on Nov. 7, 2024.

8:55 a.m. Gipson says copper cups were found in the home. Nester says if Kouri told investigators that her husband took gummies the night he died, finding those gummies would have corroborated her story. Gipson responds, “We found gummies.” Nester makes some other statements about Kouri’s statements being corroborated based on what investigators found. Prosecutors object and ask for sidebar.

8:52 a.m. A green jacket was found in the southeast corner of a closet, and there were some gummies in a pocket. Nester now asking about a search on May 8, 2023. Gipson says the purpose of the search was to obtain additional electronics, documents and drugs. No fentanyl was found in the home during that search. On Oct. 24, 2023, investigators returned. Gipson believes they were collecting more electronics that day, but would need to check her notes for complete confirmation.

8:49 a.m. Nester asks if there’s a way to tell where a hydrocodone pill was purchased. Gipson doesn’t believe so. Nester shows an image showing the packages of gummies taken from the Richins’ home. Nester points out two bags of gummies in the image that aren’t labeled. She asked if all of the packages were together in the home. Gipson says there were three clear packages with no markings.

8:45 a.m. Nester asks about the 3D camera used in the home and the measurements used with the camera. Nester asks if the Richins had a dog. Gipson says they did. Nester asks about hydrocodone pills collected at the home. Gipson did not personally find them, but there were about 10 pills in a bag. They were found in a laundry room cabinet.

8:44 a.m. There was an issue about redacting some of the information in the exhibit. Nester shows a list of all of the dates the home was searched. The colored dots next to each date indicate the day the home was searched. Gipson last visited the home around Feb. 6, 2026.

8:39 a.m. Nester asks if Gipson ever went and retrieved items from Cody Wright, Eric’s business partner. Gipson personally did not, but other investigators did and brought her a hard drive. Nester moves to admit an exhibit but Gipson asks for a sidebar. Judge asks Nester to pause questioning.

8:36 a.m. Nester asks Gipson if she knew what vehicles Eric Richins drove. Gipson believes he drove a truck. Nester asks if his vehicle was searched. Gipson believes so. Nester asks about a detached garage and asks if any of those vehicles were searched. Gipson doesn’t believe so. This search happened April 13, 2022. Gipson and the investigators were also searching for electronics. They found a computer in the office shop.

8:31 a.m. Day 4 of Kouri Richins’ trial is today after a short court day yesterday. Kathryn Nester continues to cross-examine Chelsea Gipson, the crime scene investigator. Travis Smooth, an employee of US Postal Service, was on hand during a search warrant in April 2022. He was there to help check for drugs, Gipson says.