LIVE UPDATES: Questioning of rebuttal witnesses continues on day 20 of Lindsay Clancy murder trial

Lindsay Clancy’s murder trial is underway in Massachusetts. The 36-year-old woman is charged with three counts of murder for the strangling deaths of her three children, ages 5, 3, and 8 months old. Clancy is present in a wheelchair after she was paralyzed by injuries she sustained when she jumped from her home’s second-story window in an alleged suicide attempt. Her defense lawyer claims she was insane at the time, suffering from postpartum psychosis, and could not appreciate the wrongfulness of her actions. We are posting live updates from the courtroom here. Time notes are Eastern Daylight Time. Please forgive typos.

3:55 p.m. court is in recess till tomorrow at 9:00 a.m. when Dr. Saathoff resumes his testimony. Testimony is expected to close tomorrow. Closings on Thursday.

3:44 p.m. Witness asked what did LC remember about what she said to Dawson to get him to go down the steps and leave his sister and brother uptsairs, was there resistance. She did not recall. The next child was Cora, went back upstairs, does not recall how Cora came down, brought her down tot he living room area. Bringing Callan down, all this time she heard a voice telling her to kill the children then herself. Children have a will to survive – Dr. Resnick described her as acting like a puppet. children are not puppets. Looking at cape coder video, where she is holding Callan, they both are actve. They can walk and they can run.

3:30 p.m. She described killing the children, then going upstairs, She omitted things that I thought were significant. She omitted that she crushed the pills. Patrick mentioned that on the bedside table there was a wine tumbler with powdered medication crushed up. LC told me she had lemonade, when I spoke to Patrick he said there was no lemonade at the house. What does that tell you about lemonade and powdered residue? It makes sense lemonade is in the cup, because of the bitterness of the pills.
What types of decisions is she making? Crushing pills into fine powder is not an easy thing to do. Patrick said the door was locked and she told me she did not recall locking the door.

3:31 p.m. The research for Miralax was suggested for Cora’s constipation. She did not communicate to her husband the importance of the CVS. Significance is that it lengthened the trip. Suicide was serious but required sequential decision making. She told me that she slashed the screen and dove out the window. What did LC tell you about taking the pills? it isn’t clear. Did she give you information about taking the pills? no. How did you see the sequential decision-making.

3:26 p.m. As I recall she texted her husband about opting for takeout. he responded positively and from then made the arrangements to look up the distance between her home and 3V restaurant. In looking at the record it was really reversed. instead of starting with her husband, the record shows Miss Clancy did a lot of searching – in the text instead of saying – how about getting takeout at 3V. She told me the only restaurant that she could get takeout form 3v. Patrick said they never got takeout from 3V. She had done a lot of checking on distance and the like, was inconsistent. It’s not what she told me in terms of the order in which she made the decision.

3:24 p.m. Did she tell you that the staff @ Spalding had prioritized her spinal injury over her mental health needs. What’s significant? It’s inconsistent. Her depiction of her lack of mental health care at spalding – Spalding is a rehab hospital and concentrated on her spinal injury but they did have mental health treatment.

3:18 p.m. She told me she felt like a zombie, significantly affected. The more candid a patient can be the better able the prescriber is to make a determination and can be helpful in diagnosis. Did you note the appt with Dr. Tufts, and she denied having suicidal thoughts in that meeting. How is that significant.

3:09 p.m. While in nursing school she was treated with prozac and wellbrutin for approximately a year – he was unaware that she had been treated. She misled others about how she was doing. In text messages, she stated she was doing well. in days leading up to 24 she was stating something different from what was going on inside. During this period when she was having real difficulty with some symptoms. She saw a doctor in an informal way to get some understanding of what was going on. Whole month was really difficult. She got a recommendation for lamichtol She filled the script? yes. Approved for bipolar in 2023. Used for epilepsy helpful for depression related to bipolar. She did not take it. 3 providers prescribed it but she didn’t take it because she feared a rash. What does it tell you? What was concerning was that she had decided against the lamictol did not tell the doctor she did not take it.

3:04 p.m. She said she was at the refrigerator, getting chicken McNuggets out. Is it significant that she told you she was making chicken McNuggets and Patrick testified that his son was already eating chicken McNuggets when he left on Jan 24, to run errands. It’s inconsistent. Clancy was clear about when the voice started, it was constant and then it stopped. According to Spinelli, the voices started before she left. that’s a significant difference in time – no matter which version I should consider.

2:54 p.m. This was the first time she experienced an auditory hallucination. what was unusual was the voice stopped after Callan. Based on your experience is it typical for someone to hear a voice one time and not again? no. is it typical to hear a voice that’s constant rather than intermittent. It repeated over and over until she killed Callan. The voice does not play over and over. Did you speak to her about how thoughts of her harming her children could result in losing them. Did you see that as a delusional thought. No. is it typical for someone in psychosis to immediately act on a voice. No. (Reddington has objected several times to his testimony).

2:47 p.m. I have done evaluations in the past certainly advantages to doing interview in person. Interviewed Patrick Clancy as well. Did you conduct an analysis? Miss Clancy said to me and other evaluators some voice outside of her head occurred while she was standing by the refrigerator. To Dr. Spinelli, the voice happened at 5:10 or 5:15 She described the void as increasing in intensity. Voice told her to kill her children then herself. She said it was a man’s voice, external this is your last chance to kill your children. Just as soon as it started it stopped.

2:42 p.m. Tasked with a forensic evaluation of Lindsay Clancy. Reviewed significant rmedical records, psychiatric records, hospital records from Tewksbury, from McLEan, Mass General, grand jury material, videos of individuals, surveillance of the family at the museum, and water park. Interviewed the defendant, Interviewed on 2 occasion May 29, and June 4. N may interviewed her for 6.5 hours. June 4 5 hours. conducted the interviews via zoom. could not travel.

2:33 p.m. psychosis can show, tactile, auditory, visual hallucinations, most commonly it’s auditory hallucinations. Some people who have auditory hallucinations can also have delusions. Oftentimes people who are psychotic have difficulty stringing their words together. 3 ways to show psychosis, delusions, thought & communication. You can also have one or all e

2:30 p.m. Have you published articles about postpartum psychosis – 2 patients Postpartum psychosis induced by bromocripine some women who could not breast feed took medication that inhibited lactation – medication since taken off the market.

2:24 p.m. You have evaluated female inmates that killed their children? 5 to 7. Treatment working with a team includes medications, group therapy, Individuals were brought together because of their mental illness. How many patients did you suffer from psychosis? thousands.
I spent 15 years running an inpatient unit at a teaching hospital. sidebar.

2:16 p.m. CW Rebuttal Witness #3 Dr.Gregory Saathoff, Forensic Psychiatrist:
Sr. Psychiatrist at the FBI Behavioral Unit, Bureau of Prisons, Dept of Corrections of Va, University of Virginia- is not board certified.

2:13 p.m. Court is in session.

1:08 p.m. Court is in a lunch break till 2:00 p.m.

12:54 p.m. REDIRECT: Witness testifies that being in a dissociative state or a state of psychosis does not mean a person is not in control of their actions.
RECROSS: In her psychological testing you did not find that she was lying or malingering? that’s correct. Dr. Resnick is an authority on Filicide. yes he is. Are you aware of a study that has found auditory hallucinations can come from within or externally. Not aware.

12:46 p.m. Brigham Women’s and Infants did not fail to help referred her to other programs that they thought were more appropriate. It was patient’s husband who said she was overmedicated and she agreed. The people at women’s and infants did not suggest that. yes. She went to Dr. Tufts, and Nurse Jollata fave her a prescription to titrate down – which is exactly what she did.

12:44 p.m. LC never told any of her mental health providers that she had thoughts of harming her children. In the records she denied, sucidal, homicidal, auditory, and visual hallucinations, and she did not report any psychotic symptoms. Correct.

12:38 p.m. REDIRECT: Over the years she didn’t like to leave her kids, possibly taking her life what would happen to the kids, very important factor. She had a number of diagnoses, one of the things she experienced, people were saying some things were minor – she was not sure about the effects the medication were. She thought part of the numbness and not being able to sleep was due to the medication. when she went to Mclean, she had been weaned off of seroquel, correct. Re: thought broadcasting – that is not a psychotic symptom, but if you hear a voice – that is a psychotic voice. wanted her to describe. she said except for Jan 24, she was experiencing thoughts.

12:30 p.m. REDIRECT: Symptoms that Defense read, are also symptoms of general depression, bipolar disorder, and bipolar 2. She has been at Tewksbury for 3 years. having had a chance to see her – they really think she has a mood disorder of a fluctuating kind. You interviewed her 3 years after she killed her children. You were able to watch Resnicks’ interview correct, and read the records? Yes. You were not permitted to interview the defendant until the court gave permission.I don’t know how it works. The fact that you had the recorded interviews did that overcome any deficint. Usually I have to work harder to get 10 percent of the records, you got her complete psych history from sept. correct. Did we put any pressure on you to come out on our side? no. did she ever ask you to stop? no. Prior to the review did you form an opinion about criminal responsibility. No.

12:23 p.m. Cross: If she had a genuine hallucination would she then lack criminal responsibility? it depends. She told you that she thought her brain was damaged and that she had to kill herself – do you believe she was telling the truth? yes. You’ve never written about postpartum psychosis. agree. Would you agree that with postpartum depression patient less able to laugh. it’s a symptom of depression? postpartum depression? yes. Stop looking forward to things? yes, anxious and worried for no good reason? yes. she blamed herself for a lot of things. she did. she was not happy with her life. wanted to go back to the way she was? yes. Crying constantly? yes. those are all postpartum depression symptoms she had all the symptoms. Those are all symptoms of pp depression. yes.
And there’s a tool they can use for women who complain of pp depression? yes. have you used it? no. dod you know what it is. Delusional beliefs, yes. Memory? yes. Severe sleep deprivation? yes. Mood swings? not sure.

12:17 p.m. One of the concerns was acute psychosis? that’s what you said? not exactly what I said. The reason it was not postpartum is because she was 8 months from giving birth to Callan, and usually point to one or two months after birth. What’s that based on? 6 to 8 weeks is based on accepted authority within the field. is World Health an authority? yes. would it surprise you that they say a year. Do you think it should change? I’m not in a position to offer an informed opinion on that, obviously. objection/sustained.

12:09 p.m. What is disassociation? You’re removed from yourself. your sins of time and self are altered. Disassociation in the DSM is defined as an altered mental state. There was mental illness involved. Yes. You talked about thought broadcasting and had intrusive thoughts. Did she indicate that people could read her thoughts. she was afraid of that? witness starts to answer/defense attorney cuts him off. Was she afraid people could read her thoughts? yes. who? she said to me and Mack. She said it to Patrick, she may have said it to others? How do you testify she’s saying that and you don’t know who she said it to!!! One of the things she said – her thoughts were intrusive, loud, one of the things she said because of that people might know what they were, worried about teachers could hear her thoughts? I did read that.

11:59 a.m. Would you agree that the exercising, online selling videos scam, the hyper cleaning, would you agree that is a little bit of hypomania? Some of those things that Reddington described could be symptoms of mania. Sidebar.

11:53 a.m. Reading from the witness’ findings as was brought up yesterday. Is that good medical advice to go to your family for tips when you’re suffering from psychosis.
A: I think a normal inclination is to talk to friends and family – do you have any advice. over the time she was going through this through late jan. Objection: She also had psychotropic medication w/adverse reaction. Medication that is prescribed to help symptoms. For a few people there are side effects, they don’t help and they make things worse. Do you believe she had adverse reactions in late Jan. I don’t know.

11:49 a.m. She was trying to get the anxiety to improve with counseling – it was limited. Reddington getting agitated: Are you trying to tell the jury that she was avoiding help. She was focusing about making her feelings go away and feel like herself? nothing wrong with that? I testified that was important that she felt like she was in control and she could accomplish that through discipline and hard work. That’s not a black mark.

11:45 a.m. At McLean she continued to describe her mood as numb. She indicated what her mood was right? As a doctor you wouldn’t let someone walk out the door unless the person isn’t in danger to herself or others? yes. she went home on January 5, yes.
she was described as cooperative, pleasant, mood was good and not anxious. After discharge, she felt a little hope but the suicidal thoughts returned? yes within a week. they were bad? yes.
She took medication, didn’t get better, insomnia, and felt like a zombie. She didn’t see improvement. Witness disagrees.

11:41 a.m. One of the things that you relied on was when her husband came home. he spoke with her. What did she say? He said, “What did you do?” “I tried to kill myself” “Where are the kids?” “In the basement”
Where did you get information. Patrick Clancy. Did you listen to the 911 tape? NO. She injured herself very badly – if you listen to the 911 tape, interacting with her. She could only make grunting noises. I would be surprised.

10:56 a.m. Court resumes after morning break.

10:47 a.m. She described Dec 15, as one of the worst days of her life. Husband took her to hospital. In December she would have been 7 months away from giving birth to Callan – less likely to be post partum. She did not stay in the hospital very long. At McLean she was involved group activities, and coloring does that help you you think? not coloring. Reddington notes that She was not accepted to Brigham’s postpartum program but was offered some other programs. They failed to help her, witness disagrees with defense.

10:40 a.m. In November it got worse, felt like a zombie, in December ‘it’s not getting better.” December was the worse month. She was having thoughts about harming herself, these thoughts – did someone ask her about hallucinations. Did anyone ask that question? yes. Clancy completed the answers. Are you hearing voices, typical response she gave was no. How about dark thoughts? if someone is saying I’m having dark thoughts, the follow up is ‘tell me more’ She said those thoughts (about harming the children) come to her at times. Did you talk to her husband. Yes. A couple of times she said I’m having thoughts, It’s not a plan. He asked more questions, one of the things he had been dealing with was her wanting to kill herself and possibly killing the kids.

10:36 a.m. when September turns into October how is she doing? She was anxious but had not started the meds that Tufts prescribed. Oct. 20 she sent a text to her mother – “Mom, will you please come up, something is wrong, I have horrible insomnia, don’t know how to get through the day, I took the medications but it’s making things worse. it’s scary and I don’t want to be alone.” In the middle of November she text Sue Clancy – her mother-in-law – she felt unwell. Her mother-in-law tried to help her out and referred her to another individual. That’s when she saw nurse Jollotta. She had concerns all along about the impact of the meds on insomnia. insomnia was a. problem. She felt that her meds were damaging her brain. She was hopeful to get back on track but was getting worse. yes.

10:34 a.m. One of the concerns was over the SSRI because she did not want it in her breast milk. Tufts increased her SSRI, Summer of 2022, she was happy when she saw Tufts from September up until January – you said it was confusing with a number of diagnosis, and the drugs, that was confusing. It was confusing and upsetting, you’re turning her into a zombie. yes, that’s right. Up until sept 2022. She was very happy with certain aspects of her life.

10:30 a.m. The children went to school. She was a little anxious to leave her kids. Sometimes they would cry. There were a number of times, she went out with Patrick. I asked Patrick about it and Patrick said she did not like to leave the kids. On date night for their 5th anniversary she was anxious about it. Nothing wrong about a woman concerned about leaving her children alone.

10:24 a.m. Did you interview her coworkers? I reviewed every record provided to me. Did you talk to any of the nurses. No. She also by all accounts an incredible mother? I would describe her as a good mother? No one has ever said anything bad about her except for these 2 (pointing to the ADAs) Objection/sustained. Lindsay would sing is that important. I knew that she was very good with her kids, really enjoyed them, right up within hours of their killings. She was playing with her children in the back yard. hard worker, good mother, good friend, she decides to strangle her children? One of the things you testified, this was difficult and you were able to power through- was how she felt about her children. It was an important part of my evaluation that she did not want to leave her children.

10:21 a.m. Agrees that he and Dr. Mack jointly interviewed on 4.5, 2nd day he administered tests for 3.5 hours and the third day was 3 hours. At any time did you and Dr. Mack offer a break. Did she accept that offer. Once she did and once she didn’t. She wanted to get over it. You weren’t her buddy, she knew you were there on behalf of the DA so you can tell this jury that she knew what she was doing when she killed her children isn’t that right? no that’s not right.

10:18 a.m. Reddington’s cross suggests the expert is tailoring his cross to suit the prosecution, and that the jury can’t rely on his opinion because his evaluation was done nearly 3 years after the killings. Witness acknowledges that an assessment is best done sooner rather than letter.

10:16: a.m. You wrote about how to handle difficult cross examinations? It’s how to present the assessments that you did. Reddington rattles a bunch of articles that he wrote about a postpartum woman, and asks if he had written any articles about postpartum psychosis. Reddington notes the Dr. has written only one article on psychosis nearly 50 years ago while he was in college.

10:06 a.m. Evaluate for the Bureau of Prisons – people who are being reintegrated in society, sexual violence, juveniles, a lot of focus on juvenile assessment. Defense is going over the witness’ resume.

10:01: How much have you made so far on this case? 54k You received notes from notes from Zeizel and reports from Spinelli. Have you ever treated a woman in postpartum psychosis. back in 1982 treated a group of women who killed their children? how many were there, 4 or 5 in the group.

9:54 a.m. Cross of Heilbrun by Defense Attorney Reddington:
Difference between the 2 statements. Did you say that Lindsay made a different statement at the hospital? no Are you aware of post intensive care syndrome. When a person is coming out of major surgery, known they have delusions, make statements that don’t make sense. You received a notification to evaluate LC from the DA’s office. Do you recall when?

9:50 a.m. What is your opinion? She was suffering bipolar 2, complicated by insomnia, and medications. Did she appreciate the wrongfulness of her actions? She retained an awareness of killing illegality, she was influenced by her strong desire to die, some of it was realistic, and some of it was – her awareness of the illegality and the wrongfulness of her actions. Killed them out of love rather than a response to voices. WAs she able to conform her conduct to the requirements of the law – Her strong desire not to leave her children, demonstrated self control throughout by the day, her actions at 5:15 influenced her hopelessness, she retained control over when and how she carried out.
WAs she criminally responsible? My clinical opinion is that she was criminally responsible on January 24.

9:48 a.m. She’s an individual for most of her life, she’s been in control, striking was what happened with her in October through Jan, she seemed to be doing herself and working to accomplish, she couldn’t control – it got to the point where it was difficult for her not to feel helpless.

9:46 a.m. Did you know any behavior that focused on herself. One of the things I noticed at Brigham, several days she was more future oriented. that’s one of the considerations thinking about herself. I don’t think she was thinking only about herself. when I evaluated she was still in mourning and grieving her children.

9:41 a.m. When She woke up regained consciousness, they asked her questions and she wrote down answers, what she wrote was ‘horrified,’ when you asked her about it. what was her response. She said I don’t remember, and don’t know why I wrote horrified. objection. When I asked her about a statement she made to psychiatrist at Brigham – she was asked about what the voice said – her response, you have to kill yourself and the kids so they don’t suffer without you. When I asked her about the statement she said the voice only said, you have to kill the kids so you can kill yourself. It’s inconsistent. It was very unusual to call her husband. When he called her at 5:33 pm, she called back immediately at 5:34. One of the things he said was that she sounded distracted. She’s always in the middle of something. It helps to establish a time frame. We know he left house at 5:15 and know when he came home. It was unusual but valuable to establish.

9:39 a.m. The evidence from witness’ review of LC’s material is that it more strongly supported the serious suicide attempt accompanied by killing the children out of love. I interviewed her for 3 days. During the first and 2nd day she was quite attuned. her recollection was good. She had good memory for details, continued to be attentive and responsive on the 2nd day. On the third day when we were talking about the event, she was much more cautious and guarded, more frequently said I don’t remember I don’t recall on the 3rd day. I asked her about wearing a smart watch. One of the things I asked her was which wrist – she said she didn’t remember.

9:37 a.m. She had to make decisions like the choice of where to strangle that’s a decision, what to use to strangle the children, the order of the children, that’s a decision that has to be made. To kill herself. Yes.
Why isn’t peritraumatic disassociation psychosis. Those are the circumstances.

9:33 a.m. Dr. Kirk Heilbrun returns to the witness stand for continued direct. What is Peritraumatic disassociation? It’s the sort of thing you can experience where things are unreal, it sounds psychotic but it happens when going through a traumatic set of circumstances.
A: Are you talking about when the def was strangling her children? That could be. Did she show signs of Peritraumatic – she said it felt like it wasn’t her. She said what she was going through, she was not thinking, there was no decision making, she was just listening to the voice, just taking action.
This is difficult but important. There are many ongoing decisions that have to be made to carry out the killing in 18 to 20 minutes. For example, why the basement? Who goes first? What are some of the decisions she had to make to effectuate the strangulation. Objection.

9:31 a.m. Judge advises jury that the Commonwealth’s witness will continue its direct and cross, and the Commonwealth has one last witness.

9:26 a.m. Court is in session as has been the judge’s practice he calls attorney to sidebar.