LIVE UPDATES | Day 5 of Kouri Richins murder trial

Kouri Richins, a Utah mother of three boys, is accused of fatally poisoning her husband, Eric Richins, in 2022. She is on trial in Summit County, Utah, on charges of aggravated murder, attempted aggravated murder, insurance fraud and forgery.

Today is the fifth day of the trial. It is scheduled to begin each day at 8:30 a.m. East Idaho News will be posting live written updates all day. Please excuse typos. You can watch the livestream here. The most recent updates are at the top of this page.

11 a.m. Carmen says her recollection is that while she had the ankle monitor on, she was not supposed to see her daughters. “I couldn’t go down the canyon at all.” Lewis tells Carmen she was not supposed to have contact with Nick as part of her probation and the fact he’s a witness in this case. Carmen says she does not recall that.

10:54 a.m. Lewis asks about Carmen’s current drug court and probation status. Her probation was transferred to another county. One of the conditions of her probation was not to have contact with Nick Von Savage, Lewis asks. Carmen says she isn’t sure. Lewis shows her some documents.

10:48 a.m. Lewis asks about a detective telling Carmen, “Don’t worry, we’re going to get through this so you can get on with your life.” Lewis asks about an interview on May 13 where Carmen was told detectives spoke with Nick Von Savage and learned the last drug purchase was March 9. Investigators then asked Carmen if it was possible she bought pills four times rather than three times, according to the transcript.

10:43 a.m. Lewis refers Carmen to another piece of the transcript where she talked with the investigators about them putting the puzzle pieces together. Lewis asks about Carmen, at one point, sharing that her daughter asking about what happened and Carmen saying she didn’t know. Judge says he’s having a hard time following this and Lewis needs to be more specific laying foundation.

10:41 a.m. Carmen says the detectives told her about the fentanyl. One of the detectives told Carmen, “The goal is to convict Kouri for aggravated murder. These parallel drug investigations are not a priority.” Lewis asks if Carmen recalls that statement. She says she does not. Lewis asks her to refer to the transcript.

10:37 a.m. We are back in court. Lewis asks Carmen to review a portion of the transcript. Lewis mentions the part where Carmen told a detective to get things laid out for her. “That’s because, up to this point, they’d been explaining to you what had happened, correct?” Lewis asks. Carmen told detectives she had a lot of cell phones and some were broken.

10:08 a.m. Attorneys arguing with each other. Judge says it’s time for a restroom break and apologizes that the courtroom is cold “like a meat locker.” He says they are working on it. We are on a break. Judge asks Bloodworth and Lewis to meet with him in his office.

10:03 a.m. Lewis asks Carmen if she told investigators that she made three purchases for Kouri Richins – one from Susan Kohler, two from Robert Crozier. Carmen says that’s correct – what she remembered at the time. One from Susan in February, one from Robert in February and one from Robert on March 9. “I know you’ve changed your story and you now say there’s another story, but this is what you told them a year after these events,” Lewis says.

9:59 a.m. Lewis asks Carmen to refresh her memory by reading a transcript. Lewis then asks if the second time she went back to Crozier, she asked for something stronger. Carmen says she’s confused. “You’re confusing,” she says to Lewis. The second time, Carmen asked for “more of the same” – nothing stronger.

9:54 a.m. Carmen admits to always driving without a driver’s license. Lewis asks about Carmen’s third purchase from Robert Crozier. Carmen tells Lewis she’s confusing her because she keeps bouncing back and forth.

9:52 a.m. Lewis now shows the selfie Carmen took with Nancy Peterson on the way to pick up the pills. Carmen says Nancy drove on the way to pick up the pills, but Carmen drove on the way back because Nancy wanted to get high.

9:48 a.m. Lewis asks Carmen what fentanyl goes for. She isn’t sure. Lewis asks if she knows it’s really cheap – at least it was in 2023, she says. Lewis asks if Carmen picked the money up on the same day she bought the pills. Carmen isn’t sure. Lewis asks Carmen if she’s aware that Kouri didn’t own the Midway home in February 2022 and had sold the home at the end of January 2022. Carmen was not aware of that.

9:46 a.m. Lewis reads from a transcript of the interview Carmen had with investigators, where Carmen said Kouri never asked for fentanyl. Kouri asked her to get “Michael Jackson stuff.” Lewis says we will come back to this so she doesn’t confuse Carmen by jumping around.

9:38 a.m. Lewis asks Carmen if she was holding back pills from Crozier for herself. She says no. Lewis asks Carmen if she asked Crozier for Roxy30s. Carmen says she asked for blues. Carmen testifies that she never asked Crozier for fentanyl. Lewis tells Carmen that she told the federal investigator that Kouri never asked her for fentanyl. Carmen doesn’t recall.

9:34 a.m. Lewis now asks about the first drug exchange with Robert Crozier. Lewis asks about the time Kouri asked for the “Michael Jackson drug.” Carmen had to Google it and learned it was propofol. Lewis asks if it can be bought on the street. Carmen isn’t sure – says she doesn’t go around asking for it.

9:30 a.m. Lewis keeps reading through the transcript and Bloodworth objects. Lewis says the story Carmen told the investigators in jail does not match what she said on the stand. Carmen says it was a lot to take in and process. Lewis says Carmen’s memory one year after the fact (when she spoke with investigators) was probably better than it is today (four years after the fact). Carmen says that is correct.

9:21 a.m. Lewis asks to approach the judge. After the sidebar, Lewis apologizes that this has been so confusing. Lewis continues her questioning about the conversation Carmen had with investigator Whistler about the time Carmen bought drugs from Susan Kohler. Lewis reading through part of the transcript between Carmen and Whistler.

9:17 a.m. Lewis asks about the point in the May 10 police interview where Carmen said the money would be in the closet, and that’s where she would leave the pills. Judge tells Lewis she needs to be much more careful and specific in how she asks the questions.

9:14 a.m. We now hear the call. Nick tells Carmen that’s the last time they could get any pills. Lewis brings up May 10, 2023, interview with the three investigators. Ms. Whistler, one of the investigators, asked Carmen how often she was using drugs. Carmen told her maybe once a month. Lewis says, “That wasn’t true. You were using a lot more.” Carmen says that’s correct. Lewis tells Carmen she wasn’t honest with Ms. Whistler. Carmen says that is correct.

9:12 a.m. The two phone calls were between Carmen and Nick Von Savage. In the calls, Nick told Carmen they couldn’t get any more pills. Lewis moves to admit the recording. Bloodworth does not object.

9:11 a.m. Jury is back in the courtroom. Lewis wants to refresh Carmen’s recollection with some audio recordings. The judge tells Carmen to put on headphones and listen to the recordings. When she’s done, Lewis will ask her another question. We cannot hear the audio recordings.

9:04 a.m. Court is in recess for a moment.

9:02 a.m. Lewis says she needs to play a call to impeach the witness. Prosecuting attorney Brad Bloodworth needs to listen to the call before Lewis plays it. Judge dismisses the jury briefly to get the audio system set up.

8:58 a.m. Lewis asks if Carmen used someone else’s urine for drug testing. Carmen says she has never used anyone else’s urine. Lewis asks Carmen about a way she figured out a way to “game the system” when it came to drug testing. Carmen says she and Nick never figured out anything. “It was a random phone call every day,” Carmen says of the timing of the drug testing. Lewis asks if Carmen was selling drugs in 2022 to support her habit and if she pulled some of the drugs out from Robert to use for herself or to sell. Carmen says that’s not correct.

8:54 a.m. Carmen says she has never seen the letters giving her immunity in the case. She says the letters may have gone to her attorney. Lewis asks Carmen about the last time she used drugs. Carmen says it was four years ago. She’s been clean for a little over four years. Lewis responds, “The last time you used is February 2022? That’s not correct.” Carmen says she needs to think about the dates. Lewis says Carmen told investigators the last time she used was July 2022. Carmen isn’t 100% sure.

8:51 a.m. Lewis shows Carmen a text she wrote to Nick. We see it on the screen. She says she can’t lose her drug court, and she’s worked so hard. Lewis reminds Carmen she was very nervous about meeting with federal agents. Carmen says she was. On May 10, 2023, Lewis says two US assistant attorneys and a federal government agent came to meet with Carmen in jail. At this point, Carmen had immunity from federal prosecution, Lewis says.

8:47 a.m. Lewis asks about a call Carmen had with her friend Nick. During the call, Carmen told Nick she was going to meet with the US attorneys, and she was nervous about meeting them. Carmen says she doesn’t recall the details. Lewis presses Carmen about not telling the truth. Carmen texted Nick something to the effect, “I absolutely can’t lose my drug court,” Lewis says.

8:43 a.m. Lewis asks about an interview Carmen did with detectives while she was in jail on May 4, 2023. She points Carmen to a transcript from the interview. The detectives asked her if she had talked to anyone about what had been going on. She told police she hadn’t told anyone – she’s just said she was in jail on a drug court violation. Lewis says, “That wasn’t a true statement because you had been telling people in detail that you were cooperating with law enforcement.” Carmen says she doesn’t recall. Lewis says she told Nick Von Savage. Carmen says she spoke with Nick “a little bit here and there” but not that she was cooperating.

8:40 a.m. Lewis mentions the $1,300 check Kouri wrote to Carmen on March 6. Carmen says Kouri wrote the check on March 9, and she picked it up on March 9. Eric died on March 4. Nick and Carmen were paid $25 an hour to clean the Midway mansion. Judge pauses testimony because someone needs a pair of reading glasses.

8:37 a.m. Jury is seated. Lewis begins by asking about Carmen working for Kouri and her aunt cleaning their homes. Lewis asks if Carmen mostly communicated via text. She says phone and text. Lewis asks about Carmen cleaning the Midway mansion. Carmen went over and cleaned it up for an open house. Lewis mentions Nick Von Savage, Carmen and two others cleaning the home. Kouri paid Nick through Venmo.

8:20 a.m. Carmen Lauber is back on the stand this morning as defense attorney Wendy Lewis continues cross-examination. Carmen is the house cleaner who testified that Kouri Richins asked her to purchase illicit pills for her four times around the time Eric Richins died. She was on the stand for around four hours yesterday and is considered a key witness in the trial.